Almost two and a half years now for the OWA's and they've yet to produce anything. At what point does it become reasonable to assume that there's no genuine opportunity there?
I've had a dozen or more scripts chosen to be "read" by their screeners -- but so far I don't recall any being passed on to the producers. I'm giving it until the end of the year and then I will file it away along with Inktip and another one that I can't remember the name of at the moment.
One Writers Room member has been very successful with the OWA process having twenty scripts forwarded to producers. However, he's reporting that fifteen of those scripts have elicited no response whatsoever, with some of them languishing for over a year. It's the kind of response one would expect from sending un-solicited queries.
I don't think these are real OWAs, at least not in the traditional sense. The fact a movie hasn't been produced in two plus years isn't surprising to me as it's really, really hard to get a film off the ground, but I would have suspected a few success stories like folks getting optioned or repped at least. Unless I missed it I don't see anything that's come out of it during this time.
I signed up recently only because I learned there's a guy active in their forums who used to post at the old IMDb screenwriting forum and he was so off his meds it was hilarious.
Many people couldn't decide if he was a genuine nutjob or a very clever troll.
My money was on nutjob.
He endlessly wrote about his titanic struggles with the evil forces arrayed against him and his professional screenwriting career, despite the fact he didn't actually have one and, in fact, appears to have never written a script of any kind.
This didn't stop him lecturing the forum as if he was William Goldman's smarter brother.
That the dude's been posting his same old crap at Stage 32 since the IMDb shut down its own messageboards is all I need to know about the legitimacy of Stage 32. lol
In the past I was able to derive some value from the site although not from any of the paid services they offer. Recently Amanda Toney declared in a lounge post that Stage32 has helped advance the career of thousands of writers. She provided a link to a list of success stories as substantiation of her claim. I reviewed the list and found two scripts produced into movies and maybe two dozen other cases of writers getting options, or paid gigs, or representation. Far short of her claim of thousands.
There's currently a discussion in the screenwriting lounge about whether Stage32 is a scam or not. I don't remember this kind of thing happening a few years ago.
i spent weeks trying to get off their various mailing lists ... all to no avail – so i've just set my mail server to send anything stage-32-ish into the spam folder
The scam-discussion thread has now been scrubbed from the forum despite it having been the most active thread on there in quite a while. Of the threads that aren't spam, most are sustained by posts from Stage32 employees. There's very little discussion left on the site. Lots of spam posts though.
I can name two other sites that are now blocking any comments questioning the motives and benefits of a certain for-profit script reading service, and one of those sites is arguably the last truly active screenwriting forum around, with a huge number of members.
Unfortunately, at least one of the moderators there is known to be a paid reader for that service, and the owner of the service is a regular commenter, and does not hesitate to attack anyone who dares question his business model or ethics, and he doesn't think twice about mass downvoting those people via alt accounts.
Members of long and good standing have been banned for not toeing the party line.
On a positive note, the SimplyScripts discussion board has flared back to life in a big way after being near death for a long time. The owner/admin puts up with no shenanigans. So, unless someone buys him off too, it may be one of the few sane places left to visit outside of this site.
I don't think the OWAs are an illusion as such. I actually think they're very representative of how the industry is at its lower levels. I've had a few scripts selected (out of dozens of submissions) and the industry members involved were lower down the industry totem pole than me. There's also something kinda amusing about getting the emails that your work hasn't passed muster when you're literally on the set of the movie you wrote. But then, that's the game and how it goes.
I actually feel Stage 32 is one of the more legitimate services out there given that pretty much everyone they work with is named and you can do your due-diligence on them. Plus, there's a lot you can get out of the site for free. I just think that people get a little too giddy about who people are or the level of opportunity they can actually offer. It's like a lot of aspiring screenwriters only see the studio/WGA world and can't accept that's well out of the reach of most services/platforms, including this one.
It often takes years for things to come together, so we'll see where the OWAs lead. We've also been through this dry spell over the past few years with Covid and the strikes.
I do agree about the emails 100% though. They are seemingly impossible to stop.
There are also a few large community forums I don't really participate in anymore as it's becoming obvious that they are controlled/manipulated by platform owners.
"I just think that people get a little too giddy about who people are or the level of opportunity they can actually offer."
And of course this is not at all related to any claim made by Stage 32... :)
There's an entire for-profit machine out there that exists simply to feast off the entrails of desperate and hopeful people. Film festivals, screenwriting "competitions", screenplay reader "services", online multi-level marketing schemes such as Stage 32... it's all about sucking cash out of the pockets of people so desperate for the secret handshake that they'll throw their often meager resources at anyone who gives them hope.
There's a sudden change in the OWA's as of the most recent batch. All of the current ones provide a budget range and they're all under three million dollars. This is very different from before when there was rarely a budget range provided. The current opportunities look like they could be producers actually looking for scripts with the intention of producing some low budget films. So, not looking so much like an obvious illusion now. Is it for real? We'll have to wait a while to find out.
If you have a script put through, they literally name the industry members it's gone to. They are legit. Very low down the industry totem pole, in my experience, but legit. It's people like that who can kickstart a writer's career, but it will take them time to get things moving and there will be many hurdles.
I feel like people have such unrealistic expectations, and while those expectations are certainly leveraged by many platforms, it's the communities that drive the most of it as people are obsessed with studio projects, a-list stars, red carpets, and union rates. it's a bit of a chicken and egg situation, as most writers will only entertain platforms/services that imply they'll deliver on this level. Script Revolution (and the likes of Simply Scripts) really suffers in this regard as it's more indie focused. For example, in the the eight years that Script Revolution has been delivering success stories for people, it's never been included in the Reddit r/screenwriting guides of where to get exposure, while the likes of CoverFly went straight in from launch.
We have to make sure to have a clear boundary between for profit and scam. A platform offering consultation, reviews, or whatever, and delivering on that isn't a scam.
"If you have a script put through, they literally name the industry members it's gone to."
One of the problems is the passivity of so many aspiring screenwriters. They write a screenplay and then either complain because Hollywood hasn't magically beaten a path to their door, or they pay a bunch of big-talking scammers to "go out there" with it, when the writers themselves ought to be the ones doing that.
The people selling themselves as Screenwriting Experts are little better than two-bit conmen. They are mostly a bunch of twenty-somethings who have optioned nothing, sold nothing, had nothing professionally produced and, in many cases, have never even completed a screenplay of their own. Whatever they know about screenwriting and the business they learned from HowTo books, such as the laughable Save the Cat. They have no more contacts in Hollywood than most wannabe screenwriters. What they do possess is a willingness to shamelessly lie and cheat.
"It's people like that who can kickstart a writer's career..."
Not really.
"I feel like people have such unrealistic expectations..."
True.
"...those expectations are certainly leveraged by many platforms..."
Even truer.
"...it's the communities that drive the most of it as people are obsessed with studio projects, a-list stars, red carpets, and union rates."
Reddit. But Reddit is a bunch of teenage wannabes hawking their screenplays, almost all of which mostly fall into the following categories:
1. Teenagers being murdered in the woods,
2. Teenagers arguing with their parents about getting a job;
3. Teenagers wringing their hands in angst about their little boy/girlfriend.
Another thing about most communities: the writing is generally pretty awful. That's the biggest hurdle faced by aspiring writers. Most can't write for shit, but they are constantly enabled and encouraged by others who believe it is wrong and bad to tell people the cold, hard truth. Instead they white lie, and tell them it's great, but the writer just needs to "polish this" or "go read chapter nine of Save the Cat again".
"...it's a bit of a chicken and egg situation, as most writers will only entertain platforms/services that imply they'll deliver on this level."
By most writers, you really mean the Entouragers. The people who are doing this because they long to live the Hollywood lifestyle, and they see screenwriting as the path of least resistance. "Screenwriting is easy, anyone can do it, you only gotta write one big thing and you'll never have to work ever again!!!"
"Script Revolution (and the likes of Simply Scripts) really suffers in this regard as it's more indie focused."
Both sites seem to attract a higher percentage of people who write because they love writing, as opposed to those who desperately dream of cruising the PCH in a luxury convertible as ordinary people stop and point and exclaim, "Oh my god, isn't that...?"
It's why you can find some quality writing here and at SS, but only very rarely at the likes of Reddit.
"For example, in the the eight years that Script Revolution has been delivering success stories for people, it's never been included in the Reddit r/screenwriting guides of where to get exposure, while the likes of CoverFly went straight in from launch."
Hahaha. Yeah. And at least one of the r/screenwriting mods is a paid reader for TBL, which is why any discussions questioning TBL's business model and practices gets insta-nuked and people get perma-banned. (Ask me how I know.) Franklin Leonard himself routinely uses alt accounts to downvote anyone who writes anything negative about TBL. He has never been punished for this. But it's no stretch to assume there are similar shady deals with other for-profit 'services' going on behind the scenes.
Between these shenanigans and the fact most of the people there are clueless teenagers, the Reddit screenwriting sub is a blackhole of worthlessness so far as serious screenwriting goes.
"We have to make sure to have a clear boundary between for profit and scam. A platform offering consultation, reviews, or whatever, and delivering on that isn't a scam."
All these for-profit outfits are cynically milking the dreams of hopefuls, knowing full well they are peddling empty promises, and often bare-faced lies. TBL readers are young people who have zero pull within the business. Few of them could sell even their own writing. Yet, every day I see people who are borderline suicidal because they got a low score and a negative evaluation from some 19-year-old who has been writing her own short script for two years and has never done a damn thing of note in the movie business.
I've been very open over the years about how using the Black List affected my mental health and nearly destroyed my self belief in my writing. How a platform can claim they have a "do no harm" system when scripts can be sandbagged with a 1/10, utterly demotivating the writer in the process, is beyond me.
Something I'll say about the Stage 32 OWAs that has really disapointed me is ending up on yet another mailing list selling services. I get weekly emails now telling me there's an opportunity to get my submitted scripts in shape. As mentioned before, its kind of insulting on top of the rejection.
Some of the industry members they've sent stuff to could genuinely make things happen. That's something I'll always give Stage 32 credit for. They do get stuff to people I know get projects made.
As working writer-producer and platform owner, I find r/screenwriting very mixed. The community support is wonderful but the admin/moderation side really quite scary. I have trolls on there who are never dealt with while I've been threatened with a ban for simply linking to my blog posts and guides to help answer people's questions in detail. The upvote/downvote system also means what people want to be true goes to the top while what may actually be true, but hard to swallow, gets pushed to the bottom. I've often said that subreddit is often best read upside down if you want the truthful answers to queries.
Screenwriting has been getting more and more like a get rich quick scheme over the years. Lots of people looking for fads/trends while people with zero credentials and huge followings push their opinions on what does and doesn't work. There's actually certain communities I don't like Script Revolution being promoted in because it creates and influx of new members who have completely the wrong attitude.
The more I look back, the more glad I am that I just stayed away from all competition/rating/evaluation services. Deciding to work my way up from the bottom (writing shorts for students) was the best decision I ever made. However, I just can't get people to choose the same path, yet they still ask what the secret is when they see me on a set or having a film released.
The Stage 32 OWAs are the only exposure service I use, and that's because it's relatively fair and transparent. I still find it impacts my self esteem though, despite the validation I've had.
Even if the intentions of these paid screenplay/screenwriting contest or promotion sites, et al. are pure, they can do very little to help a screenwriter or screenplay. The others are flat-out scams. Most success stories are anecdotal evidence that proves an expection to the rule and not the rule itself. Many of these sites promote screenplays getting optioned or screenwriters getting managers - two ultimately inconsequential situations that require little to no financial commitment by the other party.
Once your realize the level of subjectivity in this business, it really can set your mind free (at least it did for me). This isn't a sport like baseball where every little aspect of your performance is objectively quantifiable, creating the ultimate meritocracy. Many writers either have a story or know a writer whose script advanced in one competition and denied in another. Just this year, a writer-friend reached the Semifinals in the Nicholls with a screenplay that didn't make the Second Round in Austin. Go figure...
The trick for aspiring professional screenwriters is to find that one right person who connects with their material. This could take years or decades, or, sadly, might never happen.
I've been saying for the best part of a decade now that breaking in is all about alignment, but there seems to be this cult-like refusal to accept subjectivity exists. Everyone wants their work effectively graded like a school project - hence the obsession with rules and formatting.
Traction is traction, so I have mixed feelings about what's paraded as a success story. It is a world where even just a meeting with the right person can lead to starting a career.
What's really strange is how alienated you feel as you move into the industry. Four films now, producer on two, and I honestly feel like a freak posting in some communities because the reality I'm experiencing is so missaligned with the fantasy that's portrayed. It feels like screaming into a chasm. Many people also don't want to hear about indie film, or anything outside of Hollywood, because they see it as second rate, even though that's where people are most likely to break-in.
A few years ago I analysed the list of Nicholl Fellowship winners to that date.
Of the names on it, most had vanished. Nothing on IMDb beyond maybe their NF title. No other record of them in the business anywhere.
The pitiful few names that appeared to still be active belonged to people who were already established in the business before their NF win. That is, they were repped and working at the time they entered and won the NF competition.
In other words, the prestigious Nicholl Fellowship screenwriting competition was essentially worthless to anyone except those collecting the entry fees.
A writer I knew was desolate because he received a very low score from TBL in its early days. And I mean the lowest score imaginable. The "coverage" that came with it consisted of a few lines of txt spk. It read like a phone message from a 14-year-old, but not as intelligent. On reading the script, it was plainly not deserving of a low score -- I'd have rated it ~6-7 if anything.
It is clear the readers for TBL and other for-profit 'services' are not qualified or competent to be judging the writing of others, yet people who pay TBL for their evaluations are often left disconsolate after receiving them.
An anonymous evaluation of your work is worthless because you cannot know if the person judging it is fit to do so.
To know that aspiring writers are paying these charlatans and frauds to judge that work is infuriating.
"Shame Reddit r/screenwriting didn't really give a damn."
The Reddit screenwriting sub has always been mostly teens writing about teens, 'Fake it 'til ya make it' wannabe Hollywood insiders, and the mods shilling for TBL because they're paid readers.
"Interesting to see the Black List is now offering a referral scheme. Smacks of desperation."
Yeah, it certainly feels like many people are now pushing back against these highly questionable business models and practices.
They're finally grasping the fact that anonymous evaluations and scores are completely worthless.
Guys like Franklin Leonard milked the hopeful and the desperate for years, and it must have been a great ride for the predators while it lasted, but maybe it's over at last.
"I don't think anybody is pushing back or grasping any facts at all."
More and more people are acknowledging the fact anonymous reviews are worthless.
That's a win, because schemes like TBL are dependent upon a customer base willing to take anonymous reviews and scores seriously -- and willing to pay for them. Leonard is now reduced to peddling referral ponzi plans because fewer people are willing to pay $100 for a useless review from one of Leonard's teenage nieces with a copy of Save the Cat balanced on her knee.
"I think they've simply moved on to something else."
The people chasing paid-for affirmation and validation, and magic passwords and secret handshakes to Hollywood fame and fortune, are rarely good at writing. They will always be looking for the hidden cheat code instead of learning to write a decent screenplay. There are a lot of those people, which means TBL will always have a base of willing chumps ponying up a hundred bucks to be told their writing is [insert evaluation] by people who have nothing produced, nothing sold, nothing optioned and, in many or most cases, nothing written. But they're rapidly losing everyone else.
The Black List just isn't the brand it once was. A decade ago, it was probably second only to Nicholl within the screenwriting world. For many, it was the key to the city. Getting an 8 or making the annual list was seen (wrongly) as the equivalent of becoming a made man. I've seen how people talk about the brand now. It's not pretty. It's flipped to the other extreme. It's a huge fall from grace that's partly deserved and partly a result of people's fantasies being dashed.
I very much doubt that anything has been learned. The script rating/ranking market, anonymous or otherwise, has simply been diffused.
"The Black List just isn't the brand it once was. A decade ago, it was probably second only to Nicholl within the screenwriting world."
This is funny, considering how little the NF actually does for its winners.
"For many, it was the key to the city. Getting an 8 or making the annual list was seen (wrongly) as the equivalent of becoming a made man. I've seen how people talk about the brand now. It's not pretty. It's flipped to the other extreme. It's a huge fall from grace that's partly deserved and partly a result of people's fantasies being dashed."
If you get the time, check out my two one-pagers, Calm and Calmer, which are directly related to TBL and the validation/affirmation value it carried for so many.
"I very much doubt that anything has been learned."
There are many more people now openly talking about how anonymous evaluations (reader "services", screenplay competition judges, consultants, etc.) are entirely worthless. This is quite a significant turnaround from even a few months ago. The Emperor is naked af and people have noticed.
"The script rating/ranking market, anonymous or otherwise, has simply been diffused."
There will always be desperate and naive and gullible people out there who believe they can buy their way into Hollywood screenwriting success. Just one more evaluation and they'll be crusing the PCH in a convertible in no time. The fact they sound exactly like gambling addicts is no surprise.
But more and more people have seen the light, and that means more people telling the foolish not to waste their money on scams. (Not that it will do any good.)
What it really boils down to is that people who can write will do so, while those who can't continue to seek platform 9 3/4s at Hollywood station.
I've had a dozen or more scripts chosen to be "read" by their screeners -- but so far I don't recall any being passed on to the producers. I'm giving it until the end of the year and then I will file it away along with Inktip and another one that I can't remember the name of at the moment.
One Writers Room member has been very successful with the OWA process having twenty scripts forwarded to producers. However, he's reporting that fifteen of those scripts have elicited no response whatsoever, with some of them languishing for over a year. It's the kind of response one would expect from sending un-solicited queries.
I don't think these are real OWAs, at least not in the traditional sense. The fact a movie hasn't been produced in two plus years isn't surprising to me as it's really, really hard to get a film off the ground, but I would have suspected a few success stories like folks getting optioned or repped at least. Unless I missed it I don't see anything that's come out of it during this time.
As far as paid options, or writing gigs go, I have not heard of any so far.
Everything about that site screams "scam".
I signed up recently only because I learned there's a guy active in their forums who used to post at the old IMDb screenwriting forum and he was so off his meds it was hilarious.
Many people couldn't decide if he was a genuine nutjob or a very clever troll.
My money was on nutjob.
He endlessly wrote about his titanic struggles with the evil forces arrayed against him and his professional screenwriting career, despite the fact he didn't actually have one and, in fact, appears to have never written a script of any kind.
This didn't stop him lecturing the forum as if he was William Goldman's smarter brother.
That the dude's been posting his same old crap at Stage 32 since the IMDb shut down its own messageboards is all I need to know about the legitimacy of Stage 32. lol
In the past I was able to derive some value from the site although not from any of the paid services they offer. Recently Amanda Toney declared in a lounge post that Stage32 has helped advance the career of thousands of writers. She provided a link to a list of success stories as substantiation of her claim. I reviewed the list and found two scripts produced into movies and maybe two dozen other cases of writers getting options, or paid gigs, or representation. Far short of her claim of thousands.
These days, the screenwriting industry makes the Nigerian Prince business look completely legit by comparison.
There's currently a discussion in the screenwriting lounge about whether Stage32 is a scam or not. I don't remember this kind of thing happening a few years ago.
Anybody asking you to pay them for your writing is a scammer.
i spent weeks trying to get off their various mailing lists ... all to no avail – so i've just set my mail server to send anything stage-32-ish into the spam folder
Every email I received from Stage 32, I searched for an unsubscribe option and used it.
After a bunch of unsubs I'm now receiving only the weekly "Join the Conversation" spam email, since there is no unsubscribe option in that one.
The scam-discussion thread has now been scrubbed from the forum despite it having been the most active thread on there in quite a while. Of the threads that aren't spam, most are sustained by posts from Stage32 employees. There's very little discussion left on the site. Lots of spam posts though.
I can name two other sites that are now blocking any comments questioning the motives and benefits of a certain for-profit script reading service, and one of those sites is arguably the last truly active screenwriting forum around, with a huge number of members.
Unfortunately, at least one of the moderators there is known to be a paid reader for that service, and the owner of the service is a regular commenter, and does not hesitate to attack anyone who dares question his business model or ethics, and he doesn't think twice about mass downvoting those people via alt accounts.
Members of long and good standing have been banned for not toeing the party line.
On a positive note, the SimplyScripts discussion board has flared back to life in a big way after being near death for a long time. The owner/admin puts up with no shenanigans. So, unless someone buys him off too, it may be one of the few sane places left to visit outside of this site.
I don't think the OWAs are an illusion as such. I actually think they're very representative of how the industry is at its lower levels. I've had a few scripts selected (out of dozens of submissions) and the industry members involved were lower down the industry totem pole than me. There's also something kinda amusing about getting the emails that your work hasn't passed muster when you're literally on the set of the movie you wrote. But then, that's the game and how it goes.
I actually feel Stage 32 is one of the more legitimate services out there given that pretty much everyone they work with is named and you can do your due-diligence on them. Plus, there's a lot you can get out of the site for free. I just think that people get a little too giddy about who people are or the level of opportunity they can actually offer. It's like a lot of aspiring screenwriters only see the studio/WGA world and can't accept that's well out of the reach of most services/platforms, including this one.
It often takes years for things to come together, so we'll see where the OWAs lead. We've also been through this dry spell over the past few years with Covid and the strikes.
I do agree about the emails 100% though. They are seemingly impossible to stop.
There are also a few large community forums I don't really participate in anymore as it's becoming obvious that they are controlled/manipulated by platform owners.
"I just think that people get a little too giddy about who people are or the level of opportunity they can actually offer."
And of course this is not at all related to any claim made by Stage 32... :)
There's an entire for-profit machine out there that exists simply to feast off the entrails of desperate and hopeful people. Film festivals, screenwriting "competitions", screenplay reader "services", online multi-level marketing schemes such as Stage 32... it's all about sucking cash out of the pockets of people so desperate for the secret handshake that they'll throw their often meager resources at anyone who gives them hope.
Profiteers, essentially.
There's a sudden change in the OWA's as of the most recent batch. All of the current ones provide a budget range and they're all under three million dollars. This is very different from before when there was rarely a budget range provided. The current opportunities look like they could be producers actually looking for scripts with the intention of producing some low budget films. So, not looking so much like an obvious illusion now. Is it for real? We'll have to wait a while to find out.
If you have a script put through, they literally name the industry members it's gone to. They are legit. Very low down the industry totem pole, in my experience, but legit. It's people like that who can kickstart a writer's career, but it will take them time to get things moving and there will be many hurdles.
I feel like people have such unrealistic expectations, and while those expectations are certainly leveraged by many platforms, it's the communities that drive the most of it as people are obsessed with studio projects, a-list stars, red carpets, and union rates. it's a bit of a chicken and egg situation, as most writers will only entertain platforms/services that imply they'll deliver on this level. Script Revolution (and the likes of Simply Scripts) really suffers in this regard as it's more indie focused. For example, in the the eight years that Script Revolution has been delivering success stories for people, it's never been included in the Reddit r/screenwriting guides of where to get exposure, while the likes of CoverFly went straight in from launch.
We have to make sure to have a clear boundary between for profit and scam. A platform offering consultation, reviews, or whatever, and delivering on that isn't a scam.
"If you have a script put through, they literally name the industry members it's gone to."
One of the problems is the passivity of so many aspiring screenwriters. They write a screenplay and then either complain because Hollywood hasn't magically beaten a path to their door, or they pay a bunch of big-talking scammers to "go out there" with it, when the writers themselves ought to be the ones doing that.
The people selling themselves as Screenwriting Experts are little better than two-bit conmen. They are mostly a bunch of twenty-somethings who have optioned nothing, sold nothing, had nothing professionally produced and, in many cases, have never even completed a screenplay of their own. Whatever they know about screenwriting and the business they learned from HowTo books, such as the laughable Save the Cat. They have no more contacts in Hollywood than most wannabe screenwriters. What they do possess is a willingness to shamelessly lie and cheat.
"It's people like that who can kickstart a writer's career..."
Not really.
"I feel like people have such unrealistic expectations..."
True.
"...those expectations are certainly leveraged by many platforms..."
Even truer.
"...it's the communities that drive the most of it as people are obsessed with studio projects, a-list stars, red carpets, and union rates."
Reddit. But Reddit is a bunch of teenage wannabes hawking their screenplays, almost all of which mostly fall into the following categories:
1. Teenagers being murdered in the woods,
2. Teenagers arguing with their parents about getting a job;
3. Teenagers wringing their hands in angst about their little boy/girlfriend.
Another thing about most communities: the writing is generally pretty awful. That's the biggest hurdle faced by aspiring writers. Most can't write for shit, but they are constantly enabled and encouraged by others who believe it is wrong and bad to tell people the cold, hard truth. Instead they white lie, and tell them it's great, but the writer just needs to "polish this" or "go read chapter nine of Save the Cat again".
"...it's a bit of a chicken and egg situation, as most writers will only entertain platforms/services that imply they'll deliver on this level."
By most writers, you really mean the Entouragers. The people who are doing this because they long to live the Hollywood lifestyle, and they see screenwriting as the path of least resistance. "Screenwriting is easy, anyone can do it, you only gotta write one big thing and you'll never have to work ever again!!!"
"Script Revolution (and the likes of Simply Scripts) really suffers in this regard as it's more indie focused."
Both sites seem to attract a higher percentage of people who write because they love writing, as opposed to those who desperately dream of cruising the PCH in a luxury convertible as ordinary people stop and point and exclaim, "Oh my god, isn't that...?"
It's why you can find some quality writing here and at SS, but only very rarely at the likes of Reddit.
"For example, in the the eight years that Script Revolution has been delivering success stories for people, it's never been included in the Reddit r/screenwriting guides of where to get exposure, while the likes of CoverFly went straight in from launch."
Hahaha. Yeah. And at least one of the r/screenwriting mods is a paid reader for TBL, which is why any discussions questioning TBL's business model and practices gets insta-nuked and people get perma-banned. (Ask me how I know.) Franklin Leonard himself routinely uses alt accounts to downvote anyone who writes anything negative about TBL. He has never been punished for this. But it's no stretch to assume there are similar shady deals with other for-profit 'services' going on behind the scenes.
Between these shenanigans and the fact most of the people there are clueless teenagers, the Reddit screenwriting sub is a blackhole of worthlessness so far as serious screenwriting goes.
"We have to make sure to have a clear boundary between for profit and scam. A platform offering consultation, reviews, or whatever, and delivering on that isn't a scam."
All these for-profit outfits are cynically milking the dreams of hopefuls, knowing full well they are peddling empty promises, and often bare-faced lies. TBL readers are young people who have zero pull within the business. Few of them could sell even their own writing. Yet, every day I see people who are borderline suicidal because they got a low score and a negative evaluation from some 19-year-old who has been writing her own short script for two years and has never done a damn thing of note in the movie business.
S C A M
Also, F R A U D
I've been very open over the years about how using the Black List affected my mental health and nearly destroyed my self belief in my writing. How a platform can claim they have a "do no harm" system when scripts can be sandbagged with a 1/10, utterly demotivating the writer in the process, is beyond me.
Something I'll say about the Stage 32 OWAs that has really disapointed me is ending up on yet another mailing list selling services. I get weekly emails now telling me there's an opportunity to get my submitted scripts in shape. As mentioned before, its kind of insulting on top of the rejection.
Some of the industry members they've sent stuff to could genuinely make things happen. That's something I'll always give Stage 32 credit for. They do get stuff to people I know get projects made.
As working writer-producer and platform owner, I find r/screenwriting very mixed. The community support is wonderful but the admin/moderation side really quite scary. I have trolls on there who are never dealt with while I've been threatened with a ban for simply linking to my blog posts and guides to help answer people's questions in detail. The upvote/downvote system also means what people want to be true goes to the top while what may actually be true, but hard to swallow, gets pushed to the bottom. I've often said that subreddit is often best read upside down if you want the truthful answers to queries.
Screenwriting has been getting more and more like a get rich quick scheme over the years. Lots of people looking for fads/trends while people with zero credentials and huge followings push their opinions on what does and doesn't work. There's actually certain communities I don't like Script Revolution being promoted in because it creates and influx of new members who have completely the wrong attitude.
The more I look back, the more glad I am that I just stayed away from all competition/rating/evaluation services. Deciding to work my way up from the bottom (writing shorts for students) was the best decision I ever made. However, I just can't get people to choose the same path, yet they still ask what the secret is when they see me on a set or having a film released.
The Stage 32 OWAs are the only exposure service I use, and that's because it's relatively fair and transparent. I still find it impacts my self esteem though, despite the validation I've had.
Even if the intentions of these paid screenplay/screenwriting contest or promotion sites, et al. are pure, they can do very little to help a screenwriter or screenplay. The others are flat-out scams. Most success stories are anecdotal evidence that proves an expection to the rule and not the rule itself. Many of these sites promote screenplays getting optioned or screenwriters getting managers - two ultimately inconsequential situations that require little to no financial commitment by the other party.
Once your realize the level of subjectivity in this business, it really can set your mind free (at least it did for me). This isn't a sport like baseball where every little aspect of your performance is objectively quantifiable, creating the ultimate meritocracy. Many writers either have a story or know a writer whose script advanced in one competition and denied in another. Just this year, a writer-friend reached the Semifinals in the Nicholls with a screenplay that didn't make the Second Round in Austin. Go figure...
The trick for aspiring professional screenwriters is to find that one right person who connects with their material. This could take years or decades, or, sadly, might never happen.
I've been saying for the best part of a decade now that breaking in is all about alignment, but there seems to be this cult-like refusal to accept subjectivity exists. Everyone wants their work effectively graded like a school project - hence the obsession with rules and formatting.
Traction is traction, so I have mixed feelings about what's paraded as a success story. It is a world where even just a meeting with the right person can lead to starting a career.
What's really strange is how alienated you feel as you move into the industry. Four films now, producer on two, and I honestly feel like a freak posting in some communities because the reality I'm experiencing is so missaligned with the fantasy that's portrayed. It feels like screaming into a chasm. Many people also don't want to hear about indie film, or anything outside of Hollywood, because they see it as second rate, even though that's where people are most likely to break-in.
A few years ago I analysed the list of Nicholl Fellowship winners to that date.
Of the names on it, most had vanished. Nothing on IMDb beyond maybe their NF title. No other record of them in the business anywhere.
The pitiful few names that appeared to still be active belonged to people who were already established in the business before their NF win. That is, they were repped and working at the time they entered and won the NF competition.
In other words, the prestigious Nicholl Fellowship screenwriting competition was essentially worthless to anyone except those collecting the entry fees.
A writer I knew was desolate because he received a very low score from TBL in its early days. And I mean the lowest score imaginable. The "coverage" that came with it consisted of a few lines of txt spk. It read like a phone message from a 14-year-old, but not as intelligent. On reading the script, it was plainly not deserving of a low score -- I'd have rated it ~6-7 if anything.
It is clear the readers for TBL and other for-profit 'services' are not qualified or competent to be judging the writing of others, yet people who pay TBL for their evaluations are often left disconsolate after receiving them.
An anonymous evaluation of your work is worthless because you cannot know if the person judging it is fit to do so.
To know that aspiring writers are paying these charlatans and frauds to judge that work is infuriating.
I enjoyed this.
Shame Reddit r/screenwriting didn't really give a damn.
Interesting to see the Black List is now offering a referral scheme. Smacks of desperation.
"Shame Reddit r/screenwriting didn't really give a damn."
The Reddit screenwriting sub has always been mostly teens writing about teens, 'Fake it 'til ya make it' wannabe Hollywood insiders, and the mods shilling for TBL because they're paid readers.
"Interesting to see the Black List is now offering a referral scheme. Smacks of desperation."
Yeah, it certainly feels like many people are now pushing back against these highly questionable business models and practices.
They're finally grasping the fact that anonymous evaluations and scores are completely worthless.
Guys like Franklin Leonard milked the hopeful and the desperate for years, and it must have been a great ride for the predators while it lasted, but maybe it's over at last.
I don't think anybody is pushing back or grasping any facts at all. I think they've simply moved on to something else.
"I don't think anybody is pushing back or grasping any facts at all."
More and more people are acknowledging the fact anonymous reviews are worthless.
That's a win, because schemes like TBL are dependent upon a customer base willing to take anonymous reviews and scores seriously -- and willing to pay for them. Leonard is now reduced to peddling referral ponzi plans because fewer people are willing to pay $100 for a useless review from one of Leonard's teenage nieces with a copy of Save the Cat balanced on her knee.
"I think they've simply moved on to something else."
The people chasing paid-for affirmation and validation, and magic passwords and secret handshakes to Hollywood fame and fortune, are rarely good at writing. They will always be looking for the hidden cheat code instead of learning to write a decent screenplay. There are a lot of those people, which means TBL will always have a base of willing chumps ponying up a hundred bucks to be told their writing is [insert evaluation] by people who have nothing produced, nothing sold, nothing optioned and, in many or most cases, nothing written. But they're rapidly losing everyone else.
The Black List just isn't the brand it once was. A decade ago, it was probably second only to Nicholl within the screenwriting world. For many, it was the key to the city. Getting an 8 or making the annual list was seen (wrongly) as the equivalent of becoming a made man. I've seen how people talk about the brand now. It's not pretty. It's flipped to the other extreme. It's a huge fall from grace that's partly deserved and partly a result of people's fantasies being dashed.
I very much doubt that anything has been learned. The script rating/ranking market, anonymous or otherwise, has simply been diffused.
"The Black List just isn't the brand it once was. A decade ago, it was probably second only to Nicholl within the screenwriting world."
This is funny, considering how little the NF actually does for its winners.
"For many, it was the key to the city. Getting an 8 or making the annual list was seen (wrongly) as the equivalent of becoming a made man. I've seen how people talk about the brand now. It's not pretty. It's flipped to the other extreme. It's a huge fall from grace that's partly deserved and partly a result of people's fantasies being dashed."
If you get the time, check out my two one-pagers, Calm and Calmer, which are directly related to TBL and the validation/affirmation value it carried for so many.
"I very much doubt that anything has been learned."
There are many more people now openly talking about how anonymous evaluations (reader "services", screenplay competition judges, consultants, etc.) are entirely worthless. This is quite a significant turnaround from even a few months ago. The Emperor is naked af and people have noticed.
"The script rating/ranking market, anonymous or otherwise, has simply been diffused."
There will always be desperate and naive and gullible people out there who believe they can buy their way into Hollywood screenwriting success. Just one more evaluation and they'll be crusing the PCH in a convertible in no time. The fact they sound exactly like gambling addicts is no surprise.
But more and more people have seen the light, and that means more people telling the foolish not to waste their money on scams. (Not that it will do any good.)
What it really boils down to is that people who can write will do so, while those who can't continue to seek platform 9 3/4s at Hollywood station.
Pages